Roy Leonard interviews John E. Mack, M.D., and an experiencer

May 5, 1994, in the studios of WGN Chicago

This interview is presented primarily because Dr. Mack’s relaxation technique is discussed in some depth, both by Mack himself and by an experiencer – Peter from the chapter “Peter’s Journey”.

The entire interview is very good but to skip ahead to when Peter joins the conversation, simply set the audio player to approximately 15 minutes into the program, and click here to skip down in the transcript to that same point. This transcript has been only lightly edited for clarity; it retains many of the stray words that are normally revised for print.

Listen to this interview (mp3)

JAN: Boy am I looking forward to this.

ROY: Aren’t we all. Why is it Jan, that some – I can put our listeners tonight in two categories. Like yourself, like Ian, like me, I am fascinated. I am curious. I’m chomping at the bit. We’re going to get right into it. There is another, and I would say a very large number of people who dismiss this as ridiculous. In fact, maybe they’ve already turned off the radio.

JAN: [laughs] I hope not!

ROY: Well, they’re the losers as far as I’m concerned. Hey, if this is beyond your comprehension, if you’re not in the least bit interested, what can I say? That’s okay. But gee aren’t you a little curious? Well, when you read a new book called Abduction, published by Scribner’s, by Dr. John E. Mack, you are going to want to know more. I will, at the very beginning of tonight’s program, I want to I want Dr. Mack’s credentials on. May I do this, John? By the way, should we say John? Dr. Mack, professor, or…?

JOHN MACK: John is fine.

ROY: Well, John E. Mack, M.D., is a professor of psychiatry at the Cambridge hospital, Harvard Medical School, founding director of the Center for Psychology and social change. A well-known author of the 1977 Pulitzer Prize-winning A Prince of Our Disorder, a wonderful biography of T.E. Lawrence, and many other books. He has written a book in which he recounts his experiences over about three and a half years or so…

JOHN MACK: Four years.

ROY: …Four years now with patients – is it proper to call them patients?

JOHN MACK: This work has changed the language about so many things, because I regard these individuals as my teachers, as well as clients or patients. So we’re learning together about some mysteries that take us into areas that they in some sense know much more about than I do. So I’m reluctant to call them patients. It’s also, they’re by and large healthy people. They’re not suffering from any mental illness. So, what to call them? They’re called “experiencers” or “abductees”, and I look upon them as my co-investigators.

ROY: They are people who have experienced a phenomena that is hard to put into words.

JOHN MACK: Although the descriptions of the experiences can be can be spoken about very clearly. I mean, that we can do.

ROY: Well, we’re going to! We have a surprise and a very pleasant one too. I did tell Dr. Mack when he walked into the studio tonight that I had on a number of occasions interviewed Whitley Strieber, who I’m sure you’re familiar with…

JOHN MACK: Oh, yes.

ROY: …whose book Communion really started not a tidal wave exactly, but it re-lit if you will, the interest in this sort of thing. I mean, someone knowledgeable, someone who had written many successful books, an upstanding member of the community. You know, not a farmer from Indiana or not some guy out in the wilds of Arkansas, who comes back into town and describes these experiences.

I got to know Whitley. And Whitley was sitting exactly where you’re sitting right now. And he looked me in the eye, and he started telling me what happened. And as I said to the audience at the time, and I’ve repeated more than once, whatever it was that happened to Whitley happened to Whitley. I can’t put it any other way. How did Dr. John E. Mack get into this, if you will?

JOHN MACK: The beginning of this four year odyssey, it’s now four and a half years, began when I was introduced to Budd Hopkins in January of 1990. I knew nothing about him. I knew nothing about the subject of abductions by alien beings into spacecraft. When I first heard about it, I thought this artist, if he took this seriously, must have something wrong with him and he must be describing some new form of mental illness. So I rather reluctantly went to see him in that winter. And what struck me about him was that there was nothing odd about him. He was a very serious, intelligent, discriminating person who was telling stories that to me were at that time altogether remarkable. He was describing people from all over the United States – and now increasingly we’re hearing about these experiences from other countries – people who had not communicated with each other, people who came forth reluctantly, fearing that they would be ridiculed, but knowing in some deep, truthful way that they’d had these experiences.

They were talking about being taken by some energy, often described as a blue light, through the walls of their home. The word “floating” often comes. They’re floated down a hall, through the wall, by humanoid creatures with huge black eyes, is the most common type. Taken through the sky. Or maybe from a car. It may be from a school yard. Taken through the air into a small craft sometimes, or sometimes directly into a larger craft. They may not see the UFO. They may only see the inside of it, a craft with curved walls, various rooms. It kind of looks like a kind of a laboratory or very business-like complex place with instrument panels and consoles, computer consoles. It looks like that. And in there are more beings who subject them to a whole variety of complicated procedures involving staring and gazing with these huge black eyes at the people, taking samples, probing their noses, ears, eyes… taking sperm samples from men, eggs from women.

And these stories are consistently told. The people are terrified, at least at first. You’ll hear from Peter the terror he went through, at least in his initial recovery of these memories. And these are highly detailed accounts which are not entirely traumatic. Sometimes there’s the imparting of powerful messages and information on television-like monitors about our destruction of the Earth’s living systems, which is taken extremely seriously by the people have these experiences. They may be taken on tours of the UFOs. I say more about this, because one of the nay-saying arguments is, “well, this is some kind of displacement from some sort of sexual trauma,” but the traumatic part is only one piece of it. The complex narrative pretty much rules that out. It doesn’t operate like some other kind of trauma. In fact, there isn’t a single abduction case that has revealed behind it any other explanation. It is, as you said, what it is. It’s some kind of real experience. And that’s what intrigued me. If this is in fact happening in some sense – whether it’s literally in our physical world or simply enters our physical world but comes from some other world, whatever that is – that’s an extremely important story for humankind.

ROY: Did these people that were telling Budd their stories, had they ever had contact with each other?

JOHN MACK: Not at all. In fact what would sometimes happen, and this has happened now among the 90 people that I’ve worked with, is what will often happen is that the person will be telling the story and they will use a word like “dream”. “I had this dream of being taken into a spacecraft and this and that was done to me”. And so I said, “tell me about the dream”. They will say, “well, I went up to bed and the television was on. And then I turned off the TV, and then this blue light came in and there was this presence of these three beings around the bed”. And I’ll stop them and say, “you didn’t say you went to sleep, yet you called it a dream”. And at that point, a look of shock or horror may come over the person’s face because the denial that is contained in the word “dream” is stripped away and they know that this happened in some kind of real way. That shatters, as they say, their sense of reality. And that is again, such a powerful experience for me, because it makes me realize something I don’t understand is going on here.

ROY: Where in Dr. John E. Mack’s investigation, how far along, did you suddenly realize that you were beginning to, I don’t know how else to phrase this, “believe” these people?

JOHN MACK: One of the things I did early on, Roy, is I went to see Thomas Kuhn, who is the preeminent historian of science who introduced the word “paradigm” into our culture. We hear a lot now about “paradigm change”. I’d known him from childhood. His parents and my parents were friends, and I knew him, he was at MIT, in my community. So I said – I’ve had a number of conversations with him – I said, “Tom, I think I’ve got one here”. That is, a paradigm change. It was something I can’t explain within the Western notions of reality that I was raised in. This seems to require some kind of new reality, and that’s what we mean by paradigm change – a fundamental shift in our consideration of what is.

And he gave me some advice. One of the pieces of advice he gave me is “watch out for words”. Some of those words are words that have baggage with them. That’d be words like real/unreal, inside/outside, happened/didn’t happen, occurred/didn’t-occur, belief or not-belief. Those are words that polarize the dialogue.

Because “belief”, for example, in our culture means a guy got suckered in. That’s what belief is, right? “Oh, he believes!” A lot of headlines, when somebody wants to slam me, will say “this Harvard doctor believes this”, right? And that, obviously is said with that kind of snideness, like I’ve been taken in, in some way.

So the way I would say it is, I’ve found that what these people are telling me is something powerfully valid, important, something to be looked at. I took the stories very, very seriously. They are being as truthful as they know how to be about experiences which they themselves doubt, don’t want to credit, find it disturbing to have to move from the category of dream into some kind of real experience. And kinda that’s the way I came to look at. It took me a while before I went public on it. You asked me how long. I didn’t write anything, I didn’t speak publicly about this for about two years.

ROY: But now not only has John E. Mack spoken about it, he has written about it in a fascinating book, Abduction. It’s published by Scribner’s. The story. We will hear a story live on the radio tonight on the Roy Leonard Show from an individual to whom this experience has occurred. You’re going to meet Peter when we come back on WGN in Chicago.

Now it’s a 25 and a half minutes after 7 on WGN in Chicago. I’m Roy Leonard. Jon, you had a question?

CALLER JON: Yeah, Roy, a couple of questions. First of all, how many people does he estimate? Not just the people he’s interviewed, but like totally either in the United States or the world, does he believe have had this experience?

ROY: Interesting question. “He” being Dr. John E. Mack, who is our guest tonight, author of Abduction. John, how many?

JOHN MACK: Well, the only polls I know are the ones done in the United States. And depending on the poll, estimates range from several hundred thousand to three or four million. The best-known poll being the Roper Poll which samples almost 6,000 people, sampled in the summer of 1991 and asked questions that had to do with the most prominent symptoms of the abduction syndrome.

The problem with the polls though, is that memory plays all kinds of tricks on people in this. A person might for instance be on the negative side of the ledger, that is, has said “no”, if you ask them before an event which triggers their memory of their experience. There are two cases like that [in my book]. One man for instance had no recollection of his abduction at age 16 until he was in his mid-40s, and then he was walking along the Rocky coast of Maine, and something about that triggered the experience he’d had in a similar setting when he was 16 years old and the memories began to come back. So if you’d asked him before that walk, you would have gotten a “no”, and after a “yes”. So to get the real numbers, one would have to chart people’s experiences, that is, take polls over time. So at a given moment, the figures are as I said, but the figures would probably be higher if you could take studies that looked at the number of people reporting this over say a five or ten year period.

CALLER JON: Yeah. Another question. I saw a special once about this and some people claimed that something was implanted in their bodies, some kind of a computer chip or something that would track them. So the aliens could track them. They were abducted more than one time throughout their lives.

ROY: There are a number of examples of that in the book Abduction. We’re going to get to that in a minute, Jon. Be patient with me because I would like, before we go too much further with phone calls from the audience, to have Dr. Mack introduce – well, up until tonight, I just knew his first name, Peter, because chapter 13 in Abduction is “Peter’s Journey”. And you brought Peter with you tonight.

JOHN MACK: It’s always more useful to have people actually hear from individuals who’ve had these experiences, because when I talk about it, I talk about it secondhand and all kinds of arguments can be raised, like, “is this some kind of odd personality quirk or mental illness?” – and there’s a huge amount of evidence that it’s not that. But [I think it is more useful] when you actually hear from the individuals themselves who’ve had these experiences. These people come from all walks of life. Peter was a hotel manager when his experience occurred. I have in my sample, housewives, computer programmers, a prison guard, a gas station attendant, a musician… a business executive in a health field. I mean a huge range. There’s just no group that seems to be left out in terms of having these experiences.

ROY: So let’s hear about Peter.

JOHN MACK: Peter came to me a couple of years ago and well, I’ll let you…
(15m 33s)

ROY: Peter. Welcome to the Roy Leonard Show.

PETER: Thanks, Roy. It’s nice to be here.

ROY: Before we get the story, you were a hotel manager?

PETER: Yes. Yeah.

ROY: Are you still in that field?

PETER: No, I changed professions and now I’m a licensed acupuncturist in Massachusetts.

ROY: Now what led you to Dr. Mack? How did you wind up visiting him so that eventually he could help tell your story?

PETER: Strange, strange coincidences. I had two conscious memories of having beings in my room in 1988, when I was living in the Caribbean working as a hotel manager. So I had these dreams, what I thought were dreams, and they shook me up. They made me afraid. They didn’t fit into anything I thought was real. And I just put them in the back of my mind until I came back to Boston and went to graduate school. And I was sitting in a cafeteria one day in acupuncture school and one of my classmates was telling the story about this professor who gave a presentation of his work with people who thought they had experiences with extraterrestrials. I went to my friend and I said, can I get this guy’s phone number just in case? I always wondered. I always wondered. So I called John up and I told him my story over the phone. At that point, he invited my wife and I to come in and to tell my story in a little more detail. Came into his office in the hospital, and we sat and talked. And as I began to tell the story as I remembered it consciously, I got very emotional. A lot of emotions came up. And I’m a pretty straight rigid male – not used to crying, not used to getting emotional. And all of a sudden all these emotions came up.

ROY: Had you shared any of this with your wife? Did she know?

PETER: Yeah, absolutely. My wife was there when these experiences happened. Yes, she was a witness in the sense of in the morning witnessing me being very agitated, very afraid, not wanting to go to sleep for the next couple of nights. She saw the marks on my body when I woke up in the morning. So she was aware of it, but we had no context to put it in. I wasn’t into UFOs, I wasn’t into aliens. I didn’t…

ROY: Because, as you tell the story, I want to interrupt and…

PETER: Sure.

ROY: Because maybe some of the audience has similar feelings. I can remember as a kid, I would wake up, maybe when I was 7 or 8, and I knew there was somebody in my room. I shuddered, I was really scared, but I went right back to sleep. I found out years later that it was my mother tucking me in. But for a long while – I was, I mean, I didn’t know anything about UFOs, I didn’t care about that sort of thing – I always thought there were strangers in my room. And then I found out later it was just my mother tucking me in. So this has probably happened to hundreds of people, hasn’t it?

PETER: Well, I wished it was that easy, you know, I wished it was just somebody coming into my room. But what I remembered consciously and what I talked to [John about], what I took to John with conscious memory, was getting up off my bed, walking over to the living room, seeing a presence in my room. Two beings in my room. Turning to them and very vocally telling them to “stop this, I hate this”. Laying down on the couch, a bright light hitting me in the forehead, feeling paralyzed, my whole body shaking. And then all of a sudden, just blacking out and waking up five, six hours later and going back to bed. Those are the memories. That’s not mom walking into your room. [laughs] That’s not the cat. That’s not, you know, that’s not the next door neighbor.

ROY: So these things happen to you in the Caribbean. You just kind of tried to put them out of your mind…

PETER: Yeah, I had a life.

ROY: …thinking maybe it was a dream?

PETER: That’s what I wanted to believe. Yeah. I mean, what else could I say? It was a nightmare, it was a figment of my imagination, it was a book I read 20 years ago, anything. But aliens? I mean…

ROY: Dr. Mack, when Peter came to you, was the story that he told, by then had it become familiar to you?

JOHN MACK: Oh, yes. By, by that time I had seen perhaps 30 or 40 people who’d had these experiences. And I kind of am a conveyor of bad news, actually. “Well, there’s a good news and a bad news kind of thing. The good news is that you’re not alone. Other people have had these experiences. You’re not crazy. I don’t understand any better than you do, but it is familiar to me from accounts that other people have given. So that’s the good news. The bad news is, as far as I can tell it’s not something I can give a pill for to make it go away. It is in some way real, we have no way to stop it. And I’m sorry, it’s not a form of mental illness that I can give you a treatment for.” And sometimes people actually will come to me hoping I’ll find this as some kind of psychiatric problem that will go away. Particularly parents of small children who want to – who can’t protect their children. That’s a particularly poignant aspect of this.

ROY: So Peter is now in a sense a patient, or at least you’re his doctor, and you’re going to try to find out more from him. Now, what is your job?

JOHN MACK: Well, with Peter… This is important, [to] talk a bit about the way I work and [the way] a lot of the increasing number of people who do this work, where we’re trying to refine the art in the sense of how we approach people who’ve had these experiences. You do an initial, very careful long interview, an hour and a half or two if possible. And you take the history of the experiences they’ve had that could be abduction related. The history of presences around their bed as a child, unexplained floating through walls, lights that flood their rooms that can’t be explained, strange marks appearing on their bodies that they can’t account for, various dreams and nightmares that reflect these experiences. But you also take a very thorough – I always take a very thorough psychiatric history as well. Is there alcoholism, is there mental illness in the background, some form of abuse, disturbances in the family – something that might in some way be relevant to this. And it’s these histories and the knowledge of these individuals, not just through their mental state but also the history that gradually has made it clear to me that these are by and large healthy people to whom very extraordinary things have in fact happened.

ROY: Is that your diagnosis with Peter?

JOHN MACK: Yeah, Peter is one of the people I’ve given a battery of psychological tests, and he comes out a healthy, normal individual.

ROY: We certainly want to hear more of the story from Peter and from Dr. Mack, whose book Abduction is now one of the most talked about books in America. We have to take a break here for a little bit of business, but then we will return.

ROY: We just heard the beginning of a wonderful story, fascinating story from Peter, who is our guest along with Dr. John E. Mack, whose book, Abduction tells Peter story – happens to be chapter 13, page 293, but we’re hearing it from Peter. All right. He in the Caribbean. He has these very unusual experiences. Tries to put them out of his mind. Hears about Dr. Mack’s work. Comes in, and Dr. Mack gives him a battery of tests. He’s an okay guy?


ROY: Alright.

JOHN MACK: …well-functioning person.

ROY: But something has occurred. What is your next step as a doctor?

JOHN MACK: Yep. I think the most important point to stress here is that when Peter first came to me and I interviewed him with his wife, he already had conscious memories of being taken from the house. That a UFO had come. He even had a sense of the beings. Then he spoke, as he said, with intense emotion, crying. He’s not a person that gives way to sentimental feeling…

ROY: He’s crying, you mean as he’s telling you about this.

JOHN MACK: As he tells me that, this emotion begins to come across. And this is one of the most powerful aspects of this. That again, told me something has occurred with these people. This is not false memory or anything of that kind. Something very powerful and real has happened.

And why I’m stressing that is a lot of the critics say, “this comes out under hypnosis, you can’t rely on hypnosis,” and so forth. I look upon a lot of that as a not particularly scientific argument, but more in the department of “shoot the messenger”. You know, if we’re hearing things we don’t want to hear let’s discredit the means and let’s discredit the people.

But what happens is that there is a great deal of the experience [unavailable], I think partly because it is so powerful emotionally. (What has happened is so shattering to the individuals in a number of ways.) And, because the aliens themselves seem to impose this. This is one of the dimensions of this… there is some kind of mind-control that this energy or beings, whatever, imposes. There are large parts of the story which are not available to the people. And even though they know or sense that the recovery of the memory or memories is going to be disturbing to them, they do not wish to be “cut off” from such an important part of their lives, and they want to go further with the exploration. And that’s where the relaxation approach, or kind of modified form of hypnosis comes in.

ROY: Peter, did you readily accept the fact that you would go ahead and try, with the help of Dr. Mack, to remember more of what happened?

PETER: What happened, Roy, was after that first interview with Dr. Mack I was left knowing that something happened to me. And there was no way I could explain it. I knew something at the deepest part of my level. I was sitting there in this man’s, this psychiatrist’s office, crying and shaking, and remembering… and having these conscious memories, and knowing that something happened at the depth of my soul. And I had no – what do I do with that? So the choice was to put it all away and go on with my life and block it out and just walk out of Dr. Mack’s office and pretend it never happened, or, to pursue the knowledge that I had inside of me that something happened, and what was it? So at that point, I said, yeah, definitely, I want to know what happened to me.

ROY: What were the marks? You said you had marks on your body?

PETER: Yeah, I had two. Like I said earlier I had two conscious memories. And one of the memories I had was laying in bed and a being coming to the side of the bed and feeling a hand, literally a hand on my body. And for lack of a better word, energy being drawn out of me, or something on that level. The next morning I woke up and there were marks behind my ears. And I had lived in the Caribbean for five years at this point and been bitten by every kind of bug imaginable. I mean, I know what a bug bite is. And these marks were different than anything I’d ever experienced before. They healed in a different way. They were literally puncture marks. And I know small bugs make puncture marks, but it was different than anything I had experienced. And my wife looked at them and we tried to make heads or tails out of it and, you know, find a bedbug, or whatever it was. And there was nothing that in my experience could explain it.

ROY: Did you examine him physically as well as mentally?

JOHN MACK: There wasn’t anything physically to find at that point. Although what he’s describing in terms of unexplained marks on the body occurs in the majority of the abductees. And sometimes they’re not so subtle. One man told me about a three to four inch cut on his leg that was a bleeding and down to the bone, following an abduction. And again, this remarkable healing matter. That’s a whole area that needs to be investigated. What is the healing property that the aliens bring? Because he said that he was ready to go to the doctor for this, and it healed up in a 24 hour period.

ROY: Oh, by the time they get to you, the marks are gone?

JOHN MACK: Yeah. You can see small scars, crescent-shaped scars. And what makes these seem not just caused by something else is that they have often a kind of, if not symbolic, at least a kind of symmetry about them. They often have a crescent shape. One woman had a very clear triangular lesion on her groin. And sometimes several people in the community will wake up following a UFO passing close over with the same lesions. Each person in this one case that I’m familiar with in Florida, five people woke up with similar lesions. There’s a man that I’ve been working with in the Boston area who woke up with eight or ten small red ulcers in a symmetrical pattern on his wrist. The naysayers will often say these are self-inflicted. Well, this man is a quadriplegic. He cannot do this to himself. And he feels he’s like having double jeopardy, he can’t move and then they come and they take him and can do these things to him. So the physical findings are there. Again they’re real. They can be subtle. There is physical evidence in spite of all these pious declarations that there’s no physical evidence. That’s simply not true.

ROY: Peter, what was the next step? Did you undergo hypnosis?

PETER: Well, I went under a “deep relaxation” technique, I guess is what John calls it. I don’t know if you call what you do “hypnosis”, John.

JOHN MACK: Well I’m trying to demystify what this hypnosis matter is. Because really what you do is you allow the person basically to relax. You have them lying on the couch or they can sit back in a chair, and you say this is really about letting your attention move away from having to respond to me and any other stimuli in their room, and just relax your whole body. And you induce a few minutes of relaxation. That’s really all it is. And it allows whatever’s inside to come up, and the guards that we generally have to our inside experience tend to be let down. And then these memories come back. And sometimes the memories from what this process – whether you call it hypnosis, or just deep relaxation – to me are more reliable than what the person recalls consciously because there’s less of the ego as we call it, or the self, or the defenses distorting the experience. You get the raw power of the experience that way.

ROY: Well when we come back, we’ll find out what happened, what Peter was able to remember under this deep relaxation. It’s 11 minutes before eight. I’m Roy Leonard. We’re live on WGN in Chicago. Dr. John E. Mack. His book is called Abduction: Human Encounters with Aliens. The stories are all here. It’s published by Scribner’s. And we’re going to continue to tell one of the stories live on the radio when we come back. I don’t want to get away from Peter’s story here with Dr. Mack for too long.

ROY: So you decide that you will go ahead and you will let Dr. Mack do whatever it is he’s – what does he do? What did he do next?

PETER: What does Dr. Mack do? Essentially what he did was, we set up an interview for what he calls a regression, or what is commonly known as a regression. You go into his office. The room is kind of darkened, there’s not a lot of lights on, not sunlight. Try to keep it as quiet as possible. I lay down on a couch, do some deep breathing, and John breathes with me to relax my body, try to relax the muscles throughout my body, you know, “relax your ankle, relax your leg,” and just feel generally safe. And then we started the first few regressions with the conscious memories I had. The ones I talked about earlier.

ROY: So you just told him again.

PETER: Right. So I just went to that place where I began to tell it again. And as I began to tell it, then my mind kind of opened up and I could see more of the living room. I could see the beings more clearly, and then I could go to the next step – what happened after the light hit me in the forehead. So that’s what happens in a regression.

ROY: Now, do you prompt him at all, Dr. Mack?

JOHN MACK: There’s, there’s been some – this is kind of funny. There’s been a Doonesbury cartoon series, which depicted some psychiatrist, hypnotist, possibly invidiously modeled on me, which has this hypnotist leading this poor patient to believe that they’ve been abducted by aliens. And I want to be very clear. I do not do that. I simply ask questions. Like, “what are you feeling? What’s going on now? Where are you? What’s happening?” Just the vaguest questions to keep the account free and as unlittered of anything to do with me as I can.

ROY: Were you feeling fairly comfortable then, Peter? Or did you… how do you stay relaxed?

PETER: Well, you don’t. What happens is, and what made it real for me and what made me realize that I couldn’t deny this was, when I began to tell the story under this relaxation, the emotions came up. Things became pretty intense pretty quickly. And that was my barometer to know that it was real. Because all of a sudden I saw the beings and I felt terrified. And in regression, I could feel it. My body was shaking. I was trembling, hanging onto the side of the bed. So the emotions come up.

ROY: Are you aware that Dr. Mack is asking you questions? I mean…

PETER: Uh, well, what John does more is just kind of guide you along and say, “where are you now? What are you seeing?”.

ROY: But you hear the question?

PETER: Ah, yes, certainly.

ROY: And you give the answer.

PETER: Yeah, but it’s not quite like, ask a question and give an answer, ask a question. It’s more like, “well just tell the story, Peter, and just go for it”. And once in a while, he’d interrupt them. It’s not like a question and answer period.

ROY: What I really want to do – we’ve got the 8 o’clock news coming up, and a lot of people are concerned about traffic and wetter, because they want to make plans for the next few days. I want you to get into the meat of the story. We’re going to try to recreate what happened in that. How long ago was this, Dr. Mack, by the way?

JOHN MACK: Two years. Peter and I have had now I think it was nine regressions, of which seven are described in great detail in the book. The eighth one is summarized briefly at the end of his story. And then he’s had one or two since then which are not in the book.

ROY: All right, we’ll take the break for all of the business that we have to take care of. And then Peter will tell the story. All right. All on WGN radio, live on the Roy Leonard Show.

JAN: From the CLGV Weather Center, scattered light showers tonight, then partial clearing late, low 43. Tomorrow, cloudy skies, cooler. 60 downtown or rather 50 downtown, about 60 in the suburbs. The weekend outlook, Saturday, a chance of a shower, otherwise partly cloudy high 64. On Sunday, partly sunny, a high of 65. And right now 50 degrees… 50… I think I’m being abducted or something… 50 degrees at the lakefront, 50 at midway 47 officially in O’Hare. Humidity at 80%. The wind is West at nine, the barometer rising. All right. I do want to believe.

ROY: Don’t feel bad. Ian wants to be abducted.

JAN: Well, I don’t want to be abducted. I do like to think they’re out there though.

ROY: Well, you read a book like Dr. John E. Mack’s Abduction, and you suddenly realize that there is much beyond what you and I understand, what you and I actually know about. Now whether you choose to investigate it? That’s, I guess, entirely up to you. Some people would prefer not to expand, just to enjoy their life as they know it. That’s fine. But for those of us who are curious, it’s marvelous to have a fellow like Peter here and Dr. John Mack, who helped Peter remember more of what happened. In fact, he’s going to tell you more in just a moment, live on the Roy Leonard Show tonight on WGN in Chicago.

All right. It’s 11 minutes after 8. I hope you were with us in the first hour. In case you weren’t, maybe you just got into your car, with us tonight live in the studio is Dr. John E Mack, professor of psychiatry at the Cambridge hospital, Harvard Medical School, a founding director of the Center for Psychology and Social Change, a Pulitzer Prize-winning author, whose investigations into the subject of abductions, if you will, by some sort of alien beings or extraterrestrials has led him to put these stories in a book called Abduction. It’s published by Scribner’s. And he brought with him tonight, Peter, whose story is one of the stories told in the book. Peter, just before the break, explained to us how he found Dr. Mack and how with this relaxation technique he was able to remember things.

In fact, I’m going to let you just continue the story, Peter. You got to Dr. Mack, you told him what happened in the Caribbean. And then he helped you to remember even more, I gather?

PETER: Well what happened, Roy, was we set up a series of regressions, after that first interview. The first interview was just kind of a conscious interview where whatever I remembered consciously came out. After that, we set up the regression, and I came in and laid down the couch and went into a state of relaxation and started with that first conscious memory I had of walking over to my couch in the middle of the night, seeing something in my room, laying down on the couch and a bright light hitting me in the forehead, feeling paralyzed, my whole body shaking and trembling, and being afraid, being agitated that this was being done to me against my will. At that point in the regression or in the deep relaxation, I was able then to see what happened after the white light hit me and I was paralyzed.

Essentially, I saw one of the small beings shine a kind of wand or light under my body. And then myself literally floating up off the couch, floating through my living room, through my kitchen. And at the time we lived in a large studio apartment, and I can remember looking over at my wife laying in bed and all of a sudden, a voice in my mind saying, “don’t worry, she’ll be okay. You don’t have to worry about her.” And that was my first realization of telepathic communication between myself and the extraterrestrials. I then floated out onto our patio and was in a horizontal position, and can remember looking up into the sky and seeing a ship floating above, above the patio, maybe a hundred feet in the air and lights beaming down from it. And then literally being floated up, with the two beings that came for me, on either side of me. And floated into the ship and then sitting down in the ship and the sense of the ship moving.

Next thing I remember was being led into a room where there were a lot of other people. And these were human people. They were just standing around and I wanted to walk over to them. In fact, I did. And what happened at that point was I got the sense that I couldn’t connect with them yet, but I had to do something else. There was something else I had to do before I could be with these other people there. So for some reason, I turned to one side or another and I walked into another room. The next memory I have is myself lying naked on a table. Bright lights around me. And then the beings, the extraterrestrials, essentially probing and prodding and doing some kind of physical examination of my body.

ROY: Is pain at all involved in this? Does it hurt?

PETER: No, I didn’t experience any physical pain other than what you would experience with any doctor looking in your ears or suppressing your tongue or, you know, sticking his finger somewhere. There was nothing more than that. It wasn’t any real physical abuse to it. But what was more painful was the psychological, I think the trauma of it – being taken so far out of what you thought was reality, what was being safe, and all of a sudden laying there on a table being totally paralyzed and helpless and having creatures from outer space look at you. That’s what was hard. That’s what was hard to accept. That’s what was terrifying about it, not anything physical.

ROY: As you tell your story, Peter, and this has been told, as Dr. Mack tells in his book, by countless people. You talked to hundreds. Similar stories, if you will. Others more dramatic, maybe some less dramatic. But it is so difficult, I would imagine, for you to tell the story, as you’re telling it tonight, knowing that there are hundreds of thousands of people listening who say, “what is this guy talking about? C’mon.”

PETER: Well, you know, Roy, I used to think that way, until I’ve done this a few times and the phone calls that I’ve received were from people that called me up and thanked me so much for coming out with the story, because they’d been walking around for 20 years with the same kind of memories.

ROY: By the way, we’ve had four or five since you guys have been with me on the air tonight. I’ve asked the people to wait, we’re going to call them back if we have time. But it’s happening now as I’m sure you realize.

PETER: Yeah, that’s what’s important, that this is real…

ROY: So you’re not embarrassed by this.

PETER: No, I mean, the hard part was getting past friends and family. [laughs] And once they accepted it, or once they got through the joking period and thinking I was crazy and all that, then it’s become much easier. Because it’s my truth. It’s what I believe happened. And I stand on that.

ROY: And is the story that Peter just told us a common story, if you will? The probing, the, well in the book you tell about the stories, about lying naked on some sort of an examining table, if you will. Whoever these people are, they seem to want to know more.

JOHN MACK: The story he’s telling is very typical. What I think is missing here is the intensity of the emotion with which he told us initially. Now he’s kind of mastered it and integrated it and can speak in this matter-of-fact, straightforward way. But in the first session, when this occurred, the terror, the moving of his body, the writhing, this is what will convey to any clinician that something powerfully real has happened to these people. And when I bring other clinicians into the room and I’ve said, “okay, you don’t think this is real? Come in and watch what goes on here”. And if they know the person, they come away allied with me in the mystery.

ROY: Do you tape these sessions?

JOHN MACK: Yes, completely. They’re all audio taped and some have been videotaped.

ROY: Do you ever listen to your story as you were telling it, Peter?

PETER: Well about a year ago John and I, and a number of other people did a documentary for Canadian public television. And one of the things they did was they videotaped me the first time I listened to one of the audio tapes. And it was traumatic to listen to it again because on that tape was the screaming and the yelling. And “no, I don’t want to do this,” and “stop it, I hate this,” and “I’m afraid,” and, you know, “leave me alone”…

JOHN MACK: To watch his face as he was listening to that tape, because he was in a good place when we were just talking along; he was telling me about how he’s grown and developed and transformed through his work with himself and his life. And then this tape came on and he began to relive what had happened. And his lips began to quiver and tears came into his eyes and you could just, it’s like it came back again, what he’d been through.

ROY: You can talk about it with a fair amount of ease now, Peter.

PETER: Yeah. Well, I’ve had at least two years, Roy, now to go through this and tell the story and to synthesize it.

ROY: Dr. Mack in a number of the cases in your book these abductions in some cases happened through two or three generations of a family. They happen over a number of years. You have interviewed and talked to and helped people who can remember abductions when they were children. But more than one.

JOHN MACK: That’s correct. People ask, how many times do people get abducted? I have a number of cases where the individual only remembered one major abduction, which often will be a changing point in their lives, particularly when they investigate the experience. But then what tends to happen is, as the defenses break down, and again, the defenses are composed of two parts – the imposition of amnesia by the aliens who seem to want to protect us or block the memory [and because it is so powerful emotionally]. One of the chapters in the book is called You Will Remember When You Need to Know, and they actually blocked this boy’s memory until he could, it seemed it was a right time, whenever that is, to remember. So there is some kind of a blocking of memory. And then later the memories will come back with this intense power that we’ve been hearing about.

ROY: Peter, do you think that this experience that you related to Dr. Mack was that the only one?

PETER: I wished it was, Roy. What happened under the regressions John and I did… I guess like John said earlier, I did seven or eight regressions over the course of almost two years. What came out was not only have I had the memories from the Caribbean, but I had memories from throughout childhood. But the thing that really changed it all for me was, I saw John in I guess January of ’91 or…

JOHN MACK: ’92 I think it was.

PETER: Ok, January of ’92. And in March I had been traveling with some friends, and I was alone in a house and they witnessed a UFO outside the house. And these were three people that knew nothing of my story, that were relative strangers. I mean, business associates, peers, but didn’t know I was seeing John, that I had thought I was abducted by aliens. They came back into the house and said, “Oh my God, we just saw a UFO!”. First time in their life, they were – they wanted to call the state police. I mean, they were on that level of, “we witnessed something here”. That’s when I knew it was real. That’s when I knew the extraterrestrials could track me. They knew where I was at. I was never at this house before. I was traveling between New York and Boston, and they made their presence known to strangers so I would – this is how I feel about it, Roy – that they made their presence known to strangers so that I would know the experience was real and it wasn’t just my imagination.

ROY: Wow. Alright. Excuse me. We have to take a break. There’s more to follow here at 8:21 on WGN in Chicago. Scribner’s is the publisher of John E. Mack’s Abduction: Human Encounters with Aliens. We are talking to one of the subjects of the book tonight, Peter, live on the radio.

You may join us if you will, or wish, if there’s an area that you would like us to investigate briefly tonight. There are so many things to talk about, but we’ll touch on other areas of this whole phenomenon here at 591-7200 if you care to call.

We have some people who’d like to chat with us on the phone. But before we do that, Dr. Mack, when Peter was telling us of his experience, especially, I was fascinated by the follow-up when with friends his associates witnessed a UFO. Peter’s interpretation being, this was perhaps the aliens’ way, his abductors’ way, of adding another example of like, “Hey, Peter, this really happened”.

Was it a frightening experience as far as you were concerned? Did you have any contact at that time with the UFO, Peter?

PETER: What happened, Roy, was after that I immediately went home and I told my wife. And we, my wife kind of relaxed me. Kind of doing the same technique John did. And all of a sudden these memories came up. I saw the beings right there in the room. I saw myself floating out of the room. At that point, I just said, “I can’t do this. I need to relax”. And John and I did a regression a few days later, and the memories came up. What was terrifying was I knew at that point that they knew exactly where I was, and they literally could track me. They could pull me out of a crowd for the most part. They… I had no control. That’s when my ego got shattered. That’s when I became very humble and knew that this was something much greater than anything that I had control over.

JOHN MACK: A close encounter with a UFO just as Peter described, usually in our experience means an abduction has occurred.

Just, very quickly, what any theory will have to account for is the total picture here. The tight association with UFOs, often independently observed (as in Peter’s example) by others in the community while an abduction is taking place. The consistency of the stories, as we talked about. The fact that this phenomenon occurs in children as young as two or three years old. I have two children, two and a half years old who have described these experiences and say, “mommy, don’t let the little men take me up into the sky” and describe the same powerful feelings that Peter has talked about.

ROY: Really.

JOHN MACK: And the physical findings on their bodies. And as we’ve said, no psychosocial or psychiatric explanation. So any theory has to take this total package into account.

ROY: I’d like to take some phone calls, if you’d put on those earphones. If you just joined us, human encounters with aliens, Abduction is the name of John E. Mack’s book. And let’s get to the telephones. Brooke, you had a question?

CALLER BROOKE: Hi, I had two quick questions. One was kind of answered. And that was why don’t these people, or these beings, make themselves known to a large group of people? And the other question was, is this an American phenomenon or is it around the world?

ROY: Good questions. And they’re both answered in the book, but we’ll have Dr. Mack comment on both of those.

JOHN MACK: Yes. So I think the first question, Brooke, is really a very sophisticated problem. My response, the answer is I really don’t know, but here’s what I think. That this is something that has some subtlety to it. It’s asking us to stretch to know it. In other words, it’s not, as we say, “why don’t they land on the White House lawn?” Well, the simple answer to that would be, we’d shoot at them, because what we do to anything that’s foreign is we attack it. And they’ve had that experience with us. Often in these encounters we’ve been very aggressive. But the other aspect to this and what I’ve thought, what I’ve come to think about this is we’re kind of not ready.

People like Peter, others, are having these experiences. I’m in a, my role seems to be to communicate about these experiences to people. But the connection with the phenomenon, the connection with these beings will not be complete and obvious until we’re ready. Often the aliens will say, “you’re not ready to actually see us. You’re not ready to show up”.

ROY: As a group, as a people?

JOHN MACK: As a people. In other words there is something that is inviting us to open our consciousness to the fact that such beings might even exist. Right now, we would, we’d freak out if these showed up here. So there’s a change in consciousness that [is needed] – we don’t even allow that there are any other beings in the universe that isn’t a projection of our own intelligence. Other cultures throughout history have been able to do that, but not us. We’ve got this kind of Astrodome mentality where there’s nothing in nature out there and other intelligences are just our imagination.

ROY: How about other nations?

JOHN MACK: Yes, other nations. We’ve done the most research, but there’s work in England, Australia, France, Germany. I did a regression of a man on a farm in Brazil recently there. These cases have been reported increasingly all over the world.

ROY: You mentioned the book, the first publication about an abduction was in Brazil.

JOHN MACK: Exactly.

ROY: Late ’50s.

JOHN MACK: That’s right. And we have an international project in our program to look at how this manifests internationally, both in other cultures that are… what do you call, I don’t know, Western, first-world, all those terms are terrible. But then also indigenous cultures, indigenous peoples. We have the sense this is not going to be that remarkable. They have not lost their touch with beings of all kinds. One of my theories here, and again, this is theory, this is not fact, is that to get our attention – since as the poet Rilke said, “the senses by which we might know the spirit world have atrophied” – to get our attention something has to show up in the ways that we know. You know, aerospace vehicles, little guys with big black eyes. We don’t know any reality that doesn’t manifest physically, vividly, in the framework of our worldview.

ROY: Interesting question, Brooke. Thank you. And Christine, you’re on the air with us.

CALLER BROOKE: Oh, good evening. Good evening, gentlemen. Dr. Mack I have a question. Some of you abductees say they had little implants, and I just wanted to know, have these implants ever been removed by a doctor or a scientist and looked at?

JOHN MACK: Yes, Christine. Peter talked about feeling that he was tagged and the tagging is often by the insertion in the nose, the penis, under the skin, of some sort of little object, which is called an implant. Now, we had the hope, you know, all of us and I, as everybody else has been raised in the kind of what the philosophers called the gross material world, and let’s prove this in the material world. So, let’s look at these implants, examine them, and “they’ll give us the smoking gun that will prove that this is some strange extraterrestrial phenomenon”. It doesn’t seem to work like that. We’ve analyzed a number of them using very sophisticated methods and what they show is particles, in the case of one woman, a wire-like object or little pellets, but when you analyze them they contain elements that are familiar to us in this universe, and which are compatible with life in the human body. We don’t know where they come from, but they’re not showing us bizarre combinations of elements in proportions we don’t find here. Which isn’t surprising when you look at the subtlety of the whole phenomenon. And also the fact that these objects have to be compatible with the body’s systems to exist in people’s bodies at all.

ROY: Thank you, Christine. The time is 26 and a half minutes before 9 on WGN in Chicago. We’ll be right back.

As much as I would like to talk about some of the specifics that Dr. John E. Mack writes about in Abduction, there’s sort of an overall thing that I’d like to get into a little bit, and then maybe we can get back to specifics. Dr. Mack, and Peter you too, because you’ve undergone all of this. Have you been able to figure out or to surmise that there is a reason for all of this? Do abductees, for instance, ever undergo spiritual changes? Does something… In other words, do you think these aliens are trying to accomplish something other than investigate and probe and learn?

JOHN MACK: We’re weakest on alien intention. At the same time, it may be that something is occurring – it’s not just what they think or they want, but we’re in a relationship with them. So there may be some way that we’re evolving together. We’ve talked about the hybrid program, which is some kind of joining of species – of their essence and ours, which is for the Creator, or whatever the current word…

ROY: You mentioned, that they take sperm samples?

JOHN MACK: And they take eggs from the women. They bring it together. And they create these hybrid beings, which are seen on the ships. And what they tell us and what the abductees learn is that this is for some kind of future being, a future population which will live and be able to survive after we, the Earth people, have destroyed the Earth or the Earth undergoes some kind of cataclysmic ecological disaster.
Another dimension of this which we haven’t gotten into is that there is, almost in each case, Peter being no exception, information that is conveyed on monitors or telepathically of the destruction of the Earth and what’s going on. And this affects the abductees profoundly. And they, through this, through their own self-exploration, undergo a profound, personal growth in many instances. Peter is a very good example of that.

ROY: Peter, what is Dr. Mack talking about in your case?

PETER: In my case, Roy, I went through a deep transformation about my belief in God and my connection in the universe. Because what happens is, first off you feel like you’re totally alone and you’re isolated and you wonder, where is God in all this? You know, how, if I’m just being taken against my will and aliens from other planets are doing things to me, who’s protecting me? Who do I pray to? What, where are my angels when I need them. What I was left with was this tremendous feeling of aloneness and separation, that then began to transform to seeing that I was somehow part of some greater plan for the Earth, and that the extraterrestrials were here to kind of waken up our consciousness, to bring us to an awareness that we’re not alone as individuals on the planet, but then [are] in the greater sphere of things in the whole universe. So I then began to feel a connection with the extraterrestrials and also become much more aware of the planet and much more aware of what the meaning of life was. All of a sudden, material wealth didn’t have as much meaning as it used to.

ROY: I would imagine that, yes.

PETER: And also as John pointed out, I had a lot of memories of cataclysmic events for, to put it bluntly about where the Earth is going, if we don’t change our ways. Now, John and I have had a lot of conversations about this. You don’t know if it’s metaphoric, if they’re really going to happen, or if it’s just the possibility of it happening if we don’t wake up and change and stop cutting down the trees and polluting the Earth and all that. But regardless, it had a profound effect to change me, as far as what was important and how I should live my life.

ROY: Getting back to the mundane, if I may, into a little bit of realism here. Where does NASA fit in with all of this? Wouldn’t you think that the National Aeronautics and Space Administration, who do all of our probing of the universe and the world and all of that, do they know something that they’re not telling us, do you think, or, why haven’t they found something?

JOHN MACK: Well, there are government files that we’re trying to get them to come up with. The government position is totally inconsistent. It is that there’s nothing going on here and they won’t give access to the files. And they cover it up, which suggests that there… And they’re in I think a somewhat awkward position, which goes something like this. You’re a four-star general, and you have to report to the Secretary of Defense or the President of the United States. And you say, “sir, there are these aircraft, or these strange craft can run circles around our radar. We have no defense against them. They enter our airspace at will. They seem, according to a number of investigators, to be taking men, women, and children against their will, into them, and then doing various experiments. We can’t do anything about it, but we’re looking into it, sir.” Who would want to go out on the airwaves and make an announcement like that? So I can kind of be a little bit sympathetic with the government’s cover-up. On the other hand, I do think we could, we are, we have the maturity, it seems to me, to be able to hear the truth. After all, your audience is willing to listen to this. You’re willing to listen to it. And this is a cross-section of the people in the Chicago area. Why can’t the people as a whole be allowed to know whatever the government knows? I don’t think they know much more about abduction than we do, because I think that kind of, that they don’t, it doesn’t fit the reality of their minds, particularly.

ROY: That’s another aspect that comes up in the sessions that Dr. John Mack had with the individuals who came to him for help. And that was an experience, I think, of profound love if you will, between abductees and those who abducted them. I want to talk a little bit about that when we come back.

And if you have a question that we haven’t covered, the number is 591-7200. It’s a 16 and a half minutes before the hour of nine. I wanted to bring up to Dr. Mack briefly here as we get near the end of the program, because it came up more than once in your book, this feeling of, again, I think I quote from the book, profound love that existed in many of the instances that you write up.

JOHN MACK: Yes, initially the experiences when they’re first recalling their encounters regard the aliens as mechanical, as cold, indifferent to them personally, unemotional. But then as the terror is confronted, as Peter has, and they go through that “dark night of the soul”, the relationship transforms. And as they permit themselves, particularly to look into the eyes, a shift occurs where a powerful bonding occurs and very strong, intense love relationship can develop between the beings and, or particularly one being often, and the human that’s involved. Peter has undergone that change himself. Maybe he can just tell him about himself.

ROY: Peter?

PETER: Yeah, what happened was, as John explained, you have these intense feelings of fear and anger. But then when you get past that and you try and you make contact with the extraterrestrials, particularly by looking in her eyes – and I had this experience over and over again – that when I could just hold eye contact, just like I’m holding eye contact with you right now, Roy, I begin to see the person in Roy, I don’t just see the body sitting there. And it was the same thing with the extraterrestrials. I began to have the sense that they were almost human-like, and that they weren’t so unlike ourselves, and that they just wanted to reach out to me. They wanted me to like them, to understand them, just as possibly you want me to understand you, it was no different. And then it became a place where, God, you know, I’m not unlike them and they’re not unlike me. And they’re not so bad. And, and there was just a contact that became deeper and deeper, almost like a bonding that happened. To the point where after several regressions, when I got to the place where I could feel them, that it was almost as if that’s as much home as this is home.

ROY: Doctor, Mack, I must ask you this. Why must people like Peter be regressed /relaxed? Why can’t they just remember this?

JOHN MACK: I think it has to do with our minds being schooled to… two parts. One is there’s an actual imposition of some kind of amnesia by some force, intelligence, the being themselves, whatever. And what we call a “non-ordinary” state, a relaxed state, may be a natural state, but, the state that we call “ordinary” which is our sort of alert consciousness – that is, the everyday consciousness – may be quite non-ordinary.

So it may be that we’re allowing ourselves to open to the deeper, more natural memory-laden place within ourselves, from which we have cut ourselves off. So it may be that what all I’m doing is suspending or helping them suspend that part of our minds which keeps us guarded away from most of the depth of our own beings. So it may be a that this is the more ordinary, or not ordinary, but, the more real, profound state that we’re going into. Anyway, whatever it is, something protects us from that. And, the regression is simply a way of allowing the person to go deeper into themselves.

ROY: I’m curious. Final question. Peter, you I presume hesitated at one time to talk to anybody about this other than your wife, who of course was there. And I would presume, although you haven’t told me this, but were you, have you been laughed at, scoffed at? Well you mentioned your family.

PETER: Oh yeah. I think my favorite story is my brother-in-law referred to my wife and I as Mork and Mindy for a long time. And at first that was painful. But it got past that, Roy. It got to the place where it was important to speak.

JOHN MACK: I just want to say one word about what I found. I’ve been touring on this book now for a couple of weeks, and I’ve found a very great receptivity, so that I think people like Peter perhaps will not need to feel so ashamed, or so expecting of ridicule. People, they don’t know, they’re afraid, some people get even angry when they hear these stories. But there isn’t an… I have this sense of a greater openness to at least hear, so that this isn’t so taboo. So people like Peter won’t have to be in the closet.

ROY: I’m always amazed at people who get angry. Now I can imagine someone scoffing. I could imagine someone saying this is ridiculous. And you know, you turn the radio off or you don’t pay any attention to it. I can’t imagine why anybody would be angry, however. I don’t know where that would come from. But my final question to Dr. Mack, I mean here you are, a Pulitzer Prize-winning author, a professor of psychiatry, a recognized man in your field. But I would imagine you have some contemporaries who are scoffing at you!

JOHN MACK: Well, you know, it’s interesting, Roy, I get such a range. It’s like a Rorschach of the culture. I get enormous support from all kinds of people all over the culture, including a number of psychiatrists who say, “go to it”. Top-notch scientists who say, “this is teaching us more about the cosmos than any kind of telescopes will teach us”. And on the other end of the spectrum are people who say, “what’s happened to John? Why is he doing this? He’s you know, this is off the wall”. I mean, I get the total range. And I think the anger that you mentioned has to do with the fact this really challenges our worldview. This is not supposed to be. As the abductees themselves say, “this shatters everything I know”. So it’s a challenge to the Western control-freak mentality we have. We’re not in control. We’re not the smartest guys in the cosmos. In fact, we’re not the preeminent intelligence in the cosmos. I mean, that’s such a blow to our collective self-esteem. And nothing gets us madder than when our self-esteem is challenged.

ROY: We have one minute. Peter, are you in a sense looking forward to another experience, or would you prefer that this just come to an end right now?

PETER: I can’t say I’m looking forward to it, Roy, but I won’t be angry if it happens again, because I know I’m part of something bigger and greater, and it has importance to it.

ROY: And Dr. Mack, are you going to continue with your investigations?

JOHN MACK: Yes. I wanted to mention, we have a program at Cambridge Hospital called the Program for Extraordinary Experience Research (PEER). The address of that program is Post Office Box 382427, Cambridge Mass, 02238. If people want to write and learn more about this program, whether it’s that people have had these experiences, or just want to get some research materials, the two directions that I want to go in and which our program is going in are to look at this phenomenon with increasing rigor, get comparison groups, more sophisticated psychological analysis, to see what really is. To nail this whole thing down more fully. The other direction is to study the phenomenon internationally, to see how it shows up in other countries and among indigenous people, native peoples all over the world. Because there is some evidence that suggests this is on a continuum from other experiences of contact beyond the Earth, from which we’ve cut ourselves off. Although this does seem, they do seem to be knocking at our door more vigorously, perhaps because the Earth is on the edge of oblivion. I’m not sure why, but they’re coming in stronger.

ROY: I certainly hope not. Anyway, PO Box 382427.

JOHN MACK: That’s right.

ROY: And that’s Cambridge, Massachusetts. 02…02238.

JOHN MACK: That’s right.

ROY: If you want to write PEER. P-I-E-R?

JOHN MACK: P, double-E, R.

ROY: Okay. P-E-E-R.

JOHN MACK: Program for Extraordinary Experience Research.

ROY: Peter, thanks for sharing with us tonight.

PETER: Thank you for having me, Roy.

ROY: Dr. John E. Mack, author of Abduction. Thanks for coming by.

JOHN MACK: Thanks for having us on your show, Roy.